Alberchico From United States, joined Sep 2004, 1962 posts, RR: 0 Posted (2 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 5607 times:
this is a quote taken from a blog critical of the aircraft and company which summarizes the problems with the Eclipse 500. I had no idea the problems faced by the company and it seems that the air taxi business model does not seem to be working out as planned. Does anybody think that the company will survive in the long run or slowly fade away???
''1) Day Jet utilization is flat lined out of the gates. There has been no noticeable up-trend in the last 30 weeks. The current utilization is probably adequate to pay for half of the staff employed, certainly nowhere near enough to even break even. Air Taxi, as implemented by Day Jet and Eclipse simply does not work and the numbers prove this to be a complete failure.
2) AVIO and all its benefits have been a complete failure. Very very few of the benefits touted as being the strong points of the Eclipse “advanced” avionic design have succeeded. Electronic circuit breakers are perhaps the one exception. Oh wow, watch out Cessna.
3) Part 135 requires a third attitude indicator literally to be bolted to the glare shield as a complete afterthought. Good planning there and obvious indication of the foresight and care taken in the design of this little jewel. Collins Pro Line we are not. It looks like perhaps this little bird was designed by a Silicon Valley techie. Oh wait, it was. Perhaps we should expect some difficulty with EASA cert…
4) You guessed it, EASA certification seems highly suspect. Multiple statements from the authority hint that a fairly major re-design is required to meet their requirements. Time estimates publically stated by Vern seem absurd when compared to what EASA states. Yet again. It could take years. There may be exceptions, but in general, don’t expect sales from this market to rescue the struggling company.
5) Basics such as FIKI are delayed with no explanations forthcoming. What’s up, no one knows. No transparency remains into the status of the little jet. All estimates, expectations, and “facts” coming from Verns lips have the validity of, well, nothing.
6) Vendors have been thrown under the bus left and right. Vern blames the non performance of the vendors. Seeing as how Eclipse are the only ones to experience these “difficulties”, perhaps Eclipse is to blame for selecting the wrong vendors, not specifying the full requirements, changing the requirements at whim… Just a thought.
7) Production numbers, even after substantial effort and recovery time, have simply not panned out. Poor planning? Unrealistic expectations? Who knows. But it certainly puts the cash crunch on, yet again.
8) Take out all of the Air Taxi sales, and “real” sales are estimated in the mid 500’s. As Eclipse seems not to want to publish the real numbers, this is a guess, but is nowhere nearly enough to get return on the investment. Where are the other 10,000 sales going to come from to provide a ROI? Anyone?
9) Vern has apparently lost control and respect of the employees within the company. Outright threats of termination, lawsuits and public humiliation are now the norm to keep the worker bees in line. This is not a sign of a healthy, stable company. Expect the real talent to quietly step aside.
10) One would certainly expect a little bit of criticism to stem from these continued failures. No other aviation company has promised so much, and delivered so little. And of course Vern then sues to retaliate and attempt to silence those who dare criticize his exemplary performance. Vern even sues the few that publically support his program. This might be characterized as the winner of the all-time “Dumb-Ass Award”. What the hell are you thinking???
These are not the actions of an individual capable of running a company like Eclipse. Eclipse is, in theory, simply an aircraft manufacturing company. It is no longer a startup in need of big visions and outlandish goals. It is desperately in need of mature, experienced management with enough common sense to keep out of hot water like it is now in. Until the BOD recognizes this, expect the failures to continue. Expect the smooth talk of Vern to pacify you. But also expect to continue to write big checks to cover his continued failures.
Sue us all if that what it takes to satisfy your overblown ego, but this is the truth.''
APFPilot1985 From , joined today!, posts, RR: Reply 1, posted (2 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 5581 times:
As of right now? Failure. They have failed to deliver one airplane that actually does what they say it will. The FMS capability that was promised has now been downgraded to dual GPS400's. Less capable than what we have in many of our lighter and old airplanes. What does Vern do instead of getting his company and airplane in line? He sues bloggers....
Graphic From , joined today!, posts, RR: Reply 2, posted (2 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 5596 times:
Quoting Alberchico (Thread starter): 5) Basics such as FIKI are delayed with no explanations forthcoming. What’s up, no one knows. No transparency remains into the status of the little jet. All estimates, expectations, and “facts” coming from Verns lips have the validity of, well, nothing.
It probably has something to do with the fact that the engines are immediately aft of and just inches above the wings, and the de-ice boots extend all the way to the wing root. Any activation of the boot with any amount of ice on it would surely send ice chunks right into the engine.
Alberchico From United States, joined Sep 2004, 1962 posts, RR: 0 Reply 3, posted (2 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 5574 times:
Quoting Graphic (Reply 2): It probably has something to do with the fact that the engines are immediately aft of and just inches above the wings, and the de-ice boots extend all the way to the wing root. Any activation of the boot with any amount of ice on it would surely send ice chunks right into the engine.
Yes but you would think that engineering would have seen these problems early on and taken the appropiate corrective action. Not to mention that if the air taxi market don't develop they will lose a ton of orders. This plane will go down in history as having one of the most screwed up development programs in civil aviation history....
short summary of every jewish holiday: they tried to kill us ,we won , lets eat !
Nws2002 From United States, joined Feb 2008, 53 posts, RR: 0 Reply 4, posted (2 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 5547 times:
Maybe a successful failure. They provided the momentum for the VLJ market, and for larger, more stable companies (like Cessna) to come in a swoop up their customers.
Eclipse will go away soon, unfortunately it will leave everyone who put down a deposit without an aircraft to show for it.
MrChips From Canada, joined Mar 2005, 640 posts, RR: 0 Reply 5, posted (2 months 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 5422 times:
Quoting APFPilot1985 (Reply 1): The FMS capability that was promised has now been downgraded to dual GPS400's. Less capable than what we have in many of our lighter and old airplanes.
Rumor has it that when Eclipse paid a visit to a local charter outfit some months after the much celebrated first delivery, that not only was the aircraft (a production model, no less) not IFR-certified, but it's primary source of navigation data was a Garmin portable GPS stuck to the glare shield, as the new cockpit displays were yet uncertified. Rumor also has it that said charter outfit literally laughed those guys off their ramp for their troubles.
My thought is that the problems in the 500's development stem from the fact that it seems as though Vern thought he could use his Microsoft-gleaned knowledge of product development. Hurry the initial version out the door, then release a series of patches to achieve full functionality after a period of time. While this might work for software (many may differ from this opinion), where patches are free and are quick and simple to install (usually), "patching" an aircraft is often a fantastically expensive prospect, as parts and labour are very costly, and having an aircraft frequently removed from service for days or even weeks is equally hard to stomach for commercial operators.
Zvezda From Lithuania, joined Aug 2004, 9630 posts, RR: 57 Reply 6, posted (2 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 5377 times:
It looks like Eclipse adopted to the Microsoft corporate culture.
The good news is that they showed the VLJs are possible. Another company like Honda or Cessna will deliver a quality product at an affordable price. The Air Taxi market still appears to be viable, just not with this aircraft.
Luv2cattlecall From United States, joined Sep 2007, 674 posts, RR: 0 Reply 7, posted (2 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 5288 times:
Quoting Alberchico (Thread starter): 2) AVIO and all its benefits have been a complete failure. Very very few of the benefits touted as being the strong points of the Eclipse “advanced” avionic design have succeeded. Electronic circuit breakers are perhaps the one exception. Oh wow, watch out Cessna.
Just out of curiosity, what benefits did AVIO promise? And what of those didn't survive? I'm not trying to argue...I genuinely don't know and am curious! Thanks
Dw747400 From United States, joined Aug 2001, 818 posts, RR: 1 Reply 9, posted (2 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 5066 times:
Eclipse has been heading downhill for years. Ever since the switch to the Pratt engines (which, given Eclipse's blame the supplier philosophy I doubt was actually an engine problem), the program has been one problem after another. Delivering your first jet as Day VFR only is embarrassing at best, and even with more than 100 of these things flying, the company still can't get FIKI and continues to revise the core of the avionics system.
Even in a perfect world, the airplane is marginal compared to its competition. The 375 knot cruise is possible, but a 330 knot cruise is typical. Flights beyond 500nm requires you to dump payload--and at that range, you aren't going to get the benefit of that speed when compared to a fast turboprop, and even a Cessna 400 would not be too far behind. For example, An Epic Dynasty at 340 knots HSC costs about the same, has better field performance, blows away the Eclipse on payload range, and is cheaper to run. Is having a jet really worth loosing that performance and economy?
The DJet and Cirrus Jet are moving into the owner pilot market, attacking the Eclipse from below. You loose some speed, but save a lot of money, and most likely will have a better range/payload curve thanks to the low fuel burn of the single engine. The Mustang, Phenom, Elite, and Spectrum are all better optimized for air-taxi operations than the tiny, low payload Eclipse. The fly by night companies that bought thousands of Eclipses because they were cheap will be supplanted by well managed, well funded organizations flying these higher-performance jets.
Eclipse is largely responsible for kick-starting the market. VLJs have been done before, but they were the first company with the funding to make a big splash and promote the VLJ concept. Sadly, thats about all they have been able to do. By the time they finally straighten out the 500, the market will have already moved onward. The one-time pioneer will find themselves without the benefit of being first to market, and with the least competitive product on the market.
797 From Venezuela, joined Aug 2005, 1213 posts, RR: 12 Reply 10, posted (2 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 5029 times:
Wow this is all scaring me badly, my family´s enterprise has an estimated deliver for November 2008 and are all very excited on receiving this 'piece of jewlery' as it's been painted to us for the last couple of years...
Quoting Nws2002 (Reply 4): Eclipse will go away soon, unfortunately it will leave everyone who put down a deposit without an aircraft to show for it.
Are there any real facts that can lead you to say this with such determination?
Quoting MrChips (Reply 5): Rumor has it that when Eclipse paid a visit to a local charter outfit some months after the much celebrated first delivery, that not only was the aircraft (a production model, no less) not IFR-certified, but it's primary source of navigation data was a Garmin portable GPS stuck to the glare shield, as the new cockpit displays were yet uncertified.
We received from Eclipse a news bulletin stating that they were not able to 'merge' all the instruments and put them in the AVIO screens that you can see above in the photo posted by Alberchico, therefore, they integrated those ugly-looking Garmin 400s (i think) to facilitate the imput of the frequencies and the flight-planning. Also, they had to attach a really awkward Trasponder which was also supposed to be integrated to the screens just like the G1000.
My uncle got really pissed with these changes because that's not what Eclipse promissed us to deliver. They have taken away the keyboards and the Copilot package, leaving the aircraft with a single-pilot configuration (that is, one oxygen mask) and those horrible inputs because of their lack of integrating the features to their software systems...
They're supposed to send another bullettin in the coming days... I'll keep you posted...
Quoting Zvezda (Reply 6): Another company like Honda or Cessna will deliver a quality product at an affordable price.
Those aircraft are much more expensive than the E500... We bought the option for US$ 1.100.000 whereas those are close to 2 million...
Quoting Alberchico (Reply 8): It essentially was promised to be a fully integrated avionics system like the Garmin G1000 but failed miserably
It should be on development, as we've been told...
Alberchico From United States, joined Sep 2004, 1962 posts, RR: 0 Reply 11, posted (2 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 4960 times:
Quoting 797 (Reply 10): Wow this is all scaring me badly, my family´s enterprise has an estimated deliver for November 2008 and are all very excited on receiving this 'piece of jewlery' as it's been painted to us for the last couple of years...
Sorry to break it to you but most people who bought this airplane are now wishing they had spent their money on something else like the Cessna Mustang, which is a MUCH BETTER aircraft.
Quoting 797 (Reply 10): We received from Eclipse a news bulletin stating that they were not able to 'merge' all the instruments and put them in the AVIO screens
In retrospect instead of developing both the airplane and avionics they should have simply fitted it with a Garmin 1000 like Cessna did. But they should not have attempted to design their own systems.
Quoting 797 (Reply 10): My uncle got really pissed with these changes because that's not what Eclipse promissed us to deliver
I have a feeling more bad news are on the way with this aircraft. The fact that they can't get it certified for use in Europe means that there are some design issues that need to be dealt with. If you have the time go to the blog and read some of the comments, they are very detailed and provide some serious insight into the development of this airplane. Remember if the blog got sued, there must be some truth into what they're saying.
It seems that they guy is using the same idea they use in the software industry, rush the program out the door and later release updates and patches so that users can access its full potential. The exact same thing is happening wth this plane. The unfinished product gets delivered and then updates and modifications are made out in the field.
short summary of every jewish holiday: they tried to kill us ,we won , lets eat !
APFPilot1985 From , joined today!, posts, RR: Reply 12, posted (2 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 4905 times:
Quoting 797 (Reply 10): They're supposed to send another bullettin in the coming days... I'll keep you posted...
Be very careful, you more than likely signed an NDA with Eclipse and releasing that information can ( and Vern has shown will) result in a lawsuit
Quoting 797 (Reply 10): Those aircraft are much more expensive than the E500... We bought the option for US$ 1.100.000 whereas those are close to 2 million...
Unless you made the lock in payment a few months ago you will pay much more at delivery.
Quoting 797 (Reply 10): t should be on development, as we've been told...
NCB From Belgium, joined Jan 2008, 267 posts, RR: 0 Reply 14, posted (2 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 4875 times:
I think that some here are overreacting.
Eclipse has certain amounts of spare cash available thanks to the numerous deposits and deliveries.
A new concept never works perfectly from day one, it needs time to set its roots. Give Eclipse 2 years to figure it out and we'll talk about it again.
Dayjet? It's their second year of operations, even Ryanair needed over 20 years to become profitable and we shouldn't also forget to mention that even the legacies are having a bad time now. The first 5 years of any new business usually end-up being in the red.
The concept is marvelous and I think Eclipse will not lose the battle against its one-engined contenders for the simple matter of safety. People who afford to hire an air-taxi would rather pay 10 times the price than flying on a single engine jet.
I stand corrected but I think that single-engine aircraft are not allowed to exercise commercial operations in IFR conditions under EASA. I think that these single-engine versions are doomed to failure with the only customers ending up being flight schools using them on jet transition courses and airline captains using them on family trips.
There are many people who do not agree with the VLJ air-taxi concept and write negative press articles to bring the concept down. If you read through these articles they are full of assumptions illustrated by the numerous use of words like "apparently", "perhaps" and "seems". In brief, the usual popcorn drama.
The concept, I say again, is marvelous for the many businessmen/women who need travelling point to point and can't afford to hire a Hawker or a King Air for just 1 passenger.
Quote: It seems that they guy is using the same idea they use in the software industry, rush the program out the door and later release updates and patches so that users can access its full potential. The exact same thing is happening wth this plane. The unfinished product gets delivered and then updates and modifications are made out in the field.
Would you rather see the whole program being delayed by 3 years? Customers couldn't wait and rather had it delivered today and have it improved gradually than delivered perfect a decade later.
Dw747400 From United States, joined Aug 2001, 818 posts, RR: 1 Reply 15, posted (2 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 4828 times:
Quoting A342 (Reply 13): True, but it's barely faster than a TBM850.
And normal cruise on the EA500 is only 11 knots slower than a TBM850's high speed cruise, and even at high speed cruise the TBM850 can carry more payload further. Eclipse has an advantage for the owner pilot and his wife traveling 1000nm, but for most practical applications the performance of the TBM850 is equal to or greater than the EA500. Of course, price tag is greater than as well...
Quoting 797 (Reply 10): Those aircraft are much more expensive than the E500... We bought the option for US$ 1.100.000 whereas those are close to 2 million...
I'm not sure if you have a fixed price of $1.1 million, or if there are escalators built in, but either way a new order now is around 1.7 million. Still considerably less than the Mustang at around $2.4, but a lot more than the DJet or Cirrus "The Jet". As I said, a lot of pilots stepping up to jets will like these low-cost, simple, single-engine planes made by the same guys that there current singles are, and corporate operators, air taxis, and the like--as well as the pilots with money to burn--will start looking at the much more capable VLJs. The Eclipse will suit a few people in the middle... but not enough to roll out 1,000 per year!
Quote: There are many people who do not agree with the VLJ air-taxi concept and write negative press articles to bring the concept down.
Please note, there is a big difference between criticizing the Eclipse and criticizing the air-taxi concept.
As far as single engine jets, they are going after the owner pilot market, not the charter market. Eclipse faces pressure in the charter market from aircraft like the Phenom that were built for that market. And the PC-12 has done very well flying Part 135 in the states, so though thats not the primary goal of the single-engine jets, I would not rule it out.
Alberchico From United States, joined Sep 2004, 1962 posts, RR: 0 Reply 16, posted (2 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 4821 times:
Quoting NCB (Reply 14): Give Eclipse 2 years to figure it out and we'll talk about it again.
They have already been working on the damm airplane for 10 years!!! How much more time do they need ?
Quoting NCB (Reply 14): Would you rather see the whole program being delayed by 3 years? Customers couldn't wait and rather had it delivered today and have it improved gradually than delivered perfect a decade later.
Cessna got their Mustang certified on time despite a late start in the VLJ game. Let's say you bought a brand new 90,000 Mercedes with a built in GPS system and on delivery they told you that it does not work and you have to use a small handheld gps indefinitely. You would be unbelivably pissed.
This is an interesting quote that is part of a Eclipse Bulletin sent to owners: Not sure if it violates any non disclosure agrements but here it is:
'' The inclusion of dual Garmin GPS 400W units into Avio NG now represents the final and permanent Avio NG configuration for the Eclipse 500. We will no longer pursue our own custom FMS solution. The GPS 400W represents a low technical risk solution that enables expeditious delivery of essential functionality to your aircraft. We are extremely excited about our expanded partnership with Garmin, the leading GPS provider in the world, and we are proud that they now perform an integral role on the Eclipse 500.''
So it seems that they have given up on a integrated panel and are going for the quick fix low risk solution....
Sponsor Message: 
From United States, joined Sep 2004, 1962 posts, 
From , joined today!, posts, 
From Canada, joined Mar 2005, 640 posts, 
From Lithuania, joined Aug 2004, 9630 posts, 
From Venezuela, joined Aug 2005, 1213 posts, 
From Germany, joined Jul 2005, 3233 posts, 
From Belgium, joined Jan 2008, 267 posts,